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The Murder Book: A True Crime Podcast
Each week, The Murder Book will present unsolved cases, missing persons, notorious crimes, controversial cases, and serial killers, exploring details of the crime scenes and the murderer's childhood. Some episodes are translated into Spanish as well. The podcast is produced and hosted by Kiara Coyle.
The Murder Book: A True Crime Podcast
Jeffrey Gorton's Deadly Secret XIII: The Arrest and Interrogation
The long-awaited arrest of Jeffrey Gordon unfolds in this riveting episode that takes us deep into the interrogation room where a seemingly ordinary man's dark secrets are methodically exposed.
When Michigan State Police finally match DNA evidence to local sprinkler installer Jeffrey Gordon in the 16-year-old Margaret Eby murder case, tensions immediately flare between law enforcement agencies. Genesee County Prosecutor Arthur Bush is furious about being kept in the dark until the last moment, creating a backdrop of professional conflict that threatens to complicate the case. Meanwhile, Detective Dan Snyder makes the emotional call he's been waiting 11 years to make to Nancy Ludwig's father: "We got Nancy's killer."
The heart of this episode centers on the masterfully conducted interrogation of Gordon. Detectives Larson and Kilbourne skillfully build rapport with their suspect, gradually moving from mundane questions about his background toward revealing questions about his criminal history in Florida. Gordon's body language—arms crossed, constant rocking, nervous fidgeting—betrays his anxiety even as he attempts to maintain composure. What emerges is a disturbing pattern: Gordon's fetish for women's clothing led to break-ins and escalating confrontations with women.
The interrogation reaches its dramatic climax when investigators confront Gordon with irrefutable FBI fingerprint evidence placing him at the murder scene. "I absolutely positively know you did it," Detective Larson declares, cutting through Gordon's denials. Despite their appeals for him to explain his actions and take responsibility, Gordon maintains his innocence until the handcuffs click shut.
This episode illustrates a profound truth about predators: they rarely match our image of monsters. As one detective reflects, "All these years the Flint PD was looking for a monster and they should have been looking for the guy next door." Subscribe now to hear how an ordinary man with a seemingly normal family life harbored deadly secrets for nearly two decades.
Welcome to the Murder Book. I'm your host, kiara, and this is part 13 of Jeffrey Gordon's Deadly Secret. Let's begin. Genesee County Prosecutor Arthur Bush leaned back in his big black chair late Friday morning and he thought that this is going to be a long day. Little did he know just how long the day would be or how much he would earn his Saturday and Sunday. It was a work day, but instead of suit and tie he was dressed in blue jeans and hiking boots and a black t-shirt. The historic Stately Courthouse in downtown Flint was undergoing a major renovation and today was moving day for his staff across the street to temporary offices in a small, low-slung office building. He had been nursing a bad back and had put off the move as long as possible, but he was running out of time. He had to clear out to make room for the contractors and he had been carrying boxes to the moving trucks and was taking a short break for a meeting, he and Randy Petridis, who was the chief of the trial division, and they have a schedule with Flint police and senior staff to discuss a felony case. But then his cell phone rang Bush's cell phone. He took the call, put down the phone and he asked the police to leave. It was Captain Dan Miller of the Michigan State Police calling to let him know there had been a DNA match on the Ebi case, that they were about to pick up a local guy for Ebi's murder after some undercover surveillance work and they would be coming over for search and arrest warrants popped his spleen. The biggest case in Flint in decades was about to become the biggest arrest and prosecution of his career and they were letting him know now. Clearly they have intentionally kept him out of the loop. He would be kept in the freaking dark with the mushrooms while it all went down. That was to him an intolerable lack of etiquette, courtesy and even common sense and just the courtesy of a call the night before and he could have alerted his staff to forgo the casual clothes, forget about moving. So now he was steaming and he even said the following quote I was pissed they did it on purpose to minimize my involvement because we had had our run-ins over the years. I was not involved or consulted in this hosting operation. End quote Norman Gordon's interview.
Speaker 1:Wouldn't it have made sense to ask the prosecutor for advice on questions that might elicit the kind of answers they could use in court, and he even say that it's a team play. But the state police don't play a team game, they're lone rangers. Bonnet, though, says there was a good reason to keep him in the dark, that both the Flint PD and the prosecutor's office were notorious for leaks. And he would say quote, you will go in for a search warrant. And when you went to serve it you didn't know if they were going to greet you with milk and cookies. You never knew where the leaks were coming from. End quote Snyder. Detective Snyder says quote, in Wayne County we would have got the warrants to the prosecutor the night before, but the state police wouldn't consider faxing them to Bush the night before because they didn't trust him or his office. Butler Sprinkler was a business and you never know if Gorton's dad was a campaign contributor and might get a call tipping him off. While Gorton was being interviewed by Kilbourne and Larson, other state police and Romulus cops drove downtown to meet with Bush. They thought getting warrants would be a slam dunk, a mere formality. They thought wrong.
Speaker 1:Bush wasn't the only one who was going to be in for a long day. Bush was a liberal Democrat, grew up three blocks from the site of the historic Flint sit-down strikes of the 1930s which gave birth to the United Auto Workers. And as a boy he delivered the Flint Journal to Fisher Body Plant no 1 and hung out at the nearby Union Hall where he learned most of his politics Union Hall, where he learned most of his politics. He has outlined a book he hopes to find a publisher for, with the working title Declaring War on Everything, about how, in his words, 10 years of right-wing justice had filled our prisons, how ill-served as a society we are by the military analogies politicians used to declare war on terrorism, war on drugs, and how we need to stop warehousing criminals and start rehabilitating them. He would say there is no delivery system for rehabilitation. Do we believe only in retribution for rehabilitation? Do we believe only in retribution? Bush has several big scenes in Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine bemoaning, as befitting a Michael Moore movie, racism and its effect on the poor of Flint. What he didn't tell Moore's audience is what he brags about to visitors to his office that he has almost single-handedly taken on the gangs in Flint getting their butts off the streets and into prisons, the gangs, of course, being made up generally of the same poor minority he accuses the system of warehousing.
Speaker 1:Bush is eloquent, quotable and loves the limelight. He showed all three qualities in 2000 when the national media descended on Flint after a six-year-old first grader her name was Kayla Rowland was intentionally shot and killed by a classmate who had found a .32 caliber semi-automatic in his house and brought it to school. His mom was at work as part of the state's work to collect welfare laws and a 19-year-old staying at her house had neglected to hide or unload the weapon. The story touched any number of media hot buttons, and Bush's too. For days, the camera crews lined up in a row outside the school filing their reports. Bush would walk the line doing one stand-up after another. As much as he favored the national attention, he knew when and how to play a local game also. One day he was just about to do a lengthy interview for a local TV news show when a national producer pulled him aside and asked him if they could grab him now. And he said no, you can't because I'm busy. And the producer said but it's Katie Couric. And he said to the producer but I don't get elected in Manhattan, but I don't get elected in
Speaker 1:Manhattan. April of 2003 was an interesting month for Bush, to say the least. He started it out in Hollywood accompanying Moore to a round of Oscar bashes and he finished it in Washington arguing before the Supreme Court that a conviction years earlier in a murder case in Genesee County did not amount to double jeopardy, even though the judge had originally decided that the facts in the case did not marry a charge of premeditation, then later reversed himself. The Oscar voters agreed with his friend more and the Supreme Court later unanimously agreed with him. And the Supreme Court later unanimously agreed with him. Fresh back from Hollywood and about to leave for Washington for his appearance before the Supreme Court, bush was blunt and shot from the tip. When interviewed about the events on the day Gordon was picked up, he admitted he was angry from the start about a state police task force being established in Flint and he admitted he didn't have much use in general for the cops who ran it. Bush had applied for funding to set up his own cold case squad. When word came that the state police would be running one instead and that no funds would be forthcoming for his staff, he said the decision was made by then-Mich Michigan Governor John Engler, something state police press dismissed as
Speaker 1:preposterous. Bush said he met at one of his favorite spots in Flint, the Sunrise County Island. He said quote I like to hide in the corner there and people don't know my business To discuss, end quote. And you know he wanted to go there to discuss a cold case squad with his chief investigator, gary Elford, who had run the Ebi crime scene and later joined Bush's staff after retiring from the Flynn PD. So Bush said quote. I had Gary meet me there to have coffee and I told him I wanted to work on the Abby case. It bugged me. We couldn't solve it after all those years. I thought DNA had gotten cheap enough we could afford to run tests without a lot of time and expense. End quote. Bush said he even had meetings with King and former members of the Flint PD to learn about the case and that he was planning to take a hands-on approach to interviewing their chief suspect, charles Stone, who was reported to be living in Maryland. And he said well, I was planning a trip to Maryland with gold gloves in hand. I was going to show up there all these years later and have a chat with
Speaker 1:him. But within a couple of days of meeting with Gary the state police came in. Maybe my paranoia is running wild. But my idea wasn't popular with the Engler administration because they didn't want a democratic prosecutor to get the kind of publicity this thing would develop. As soon as they figure out what I was up to, they sent in 10 state police officers with the sum total of one homicide investigation between them. I was pretty upset with Chief Barksdale that he agreed to it without consulting me and that's his quote
Speaker 1:directly. The state police and Bush had clashed several times during the cold case investigations. Once when he refused to issue a warrant to arrest a truck driver and the serial raping of prostitutes. Another when he refused a search warrant for Hal Settle who was investigating the serial murders of prostitutes. Settle, who was investigating the serial murders of prostitutes. It didn't seem to mollify him that Elford was eventually appointed to the task force. And of the case with House Settle he said, quote basically this traffic cop who has been given a white horse to ride comes in and wants a search warrant to go to a suspect's house. I told him you know you need probable cause. What makes you think you have something? And he said I know it in my heart. My group of veteran prosecutors and I look at each other and roll our eyes. I know it in my heart, turning into no End quote. Keith Cummings was eventually arrested and convicted in 2001 for killing two of the prostitutes. The murders of the others remain unsolved. Regarding others in the state police chain of command, he said Captain Dan Miller, dan Bonnet's supervisor, was a dickhead and that in his view Bonnet was a command officer with very little experience. He was very good with radar guns and that's about
Speaker 1:it. As for declining a warrant for the rapist, bush said the state police thought a warrant would help them link the guy to Abby's death. And he said quote I wasn't too impressed with that approach end quote and that most of the acts seem to have occurred in Tuscola County anyway. Barksdale said his relationship with Bush was irreparably damaged when Bush refused to issue a warrant for the trucker. He said the Flint police had arrested him, he had confessed to the forcible rape of 11 prostitutes, either at gunpoint or knife point, had served time in Colorado for previous rape convictions and told police he was willing to plead guilty to felonious assault. And Barksdale said, quote we went to Bush for a warrant and he flat out refused us. He said we have no authority to accept a plea. He said it sounded like a failure to pay and that the prostitute should sue him in civil court for the money. Can you believe that? End quote. Barksdale then turned to federal prosecutors and luckily, one of the rapes involved a gun, and a federal prosecutor in Bay County charged the trucker, clyde William Hare, with violating federal gun laws. In September of 2002, hare was sentenced to 327 months in prison. So when Bush got the call, well into a moving day that a suspect was about to be taken into custody for killing Margaret Ebby, there was already a long history of animosity between him, the Flint PD and the state police. Relations were not about to get better. We'll be right back Back at the Flint Post as Larson and Kilbourne pull out to go to
Speaker 1:Gordon's. Snyder made a phone call. Some of the state cops thought he was rushing things to wait for an arrest. Snyder had a phone call. Some of the state cops thought he was rushing things ought to wait for an arrest. Snyder had waited long enough. It was a call he had promised Art Ludwig that one day, one year sooner or later, he would make. This was going to be news they were going to have a hard time keeping a lid on. He didn't want Art Ludwig to hear about it on the news or from some reporter on the phone. So it was a call he was going to make now, procedure be
Speaker 1:damned. In Minnesota, art was sitting in the Blue Rocker in the living room reading the morning paper, half watching CNN, when the phone rang and it was Dan Snyder who said Art hi, dan Snyder, this is something you have been waiting to hear and something I have been waiting to tell you for 11 years. We got Nancy's killer. The state police are on their way to pick him up right now. Art broke down on the phone and Art later recalls the following quote it was like an emotional axe in the head. It's the call you have been waiting for for 11 years. It was so emotional. You are reading the paper and the last thing you expect is a call from Detective Dan Snyder. End quote Dan told him to sit tight with it to keep it quiet for an hour. They were making an arrest, but wanted to interview the suspect
Speaker 1:first. Half an hour later, someone at his old station, kare, phoned. Word was leaking somewhere. Art did as Dan had asked and stole and said something's going on in Flint, but I don't know what it is yet Half an hour later, another station call. By then the cat was out of the bag, according to Art. He told them the good news, then got on the phone and started calling all the family and friends he could think of. Later, tough guy cop Brandon Mill would say of Snyder's call quote. That was truly touching. It was probably the most touching moment in Dan Snyder's career and I was happy for him. End quote. Later Snyder would go through the list of 20,000 names he and his investigators had compiled. Gordon's wasn't on there. He wasn't someone they had been told about or heard about and overlooked. Snyder was relieved. It meant that they have not missed anything or screw
Speaker 1:up. At Genesis Hospital south of Flint the police searched the huge parking lot until they found Brenda Gordon's car. Sergeant Rudy Gonzalez stayed with it in case she should drive off while his partner was inside. Coincidentally, brenda, a records clerk, was on the phone trying to reach Jeff. Someone from the TV antenna company was coming today and she wanted to remind him to stick around the house but for some reason he wasn't answering. When her boss came up to her and told her Brenda, you gotta go down to. Personnel came up to her and told her Brenda, you got to go down to personnel. The way she said it, it reminded Brenda of being in school and being called down to the principal's
Speaker 1:office. Her immediate thought was mom's been hurt in a car wreck. So she went down to personnel and the woman in the front desk pointed to a small room of the main office area and told Brenda that there's somebody for you in that room. Sure, now it was bad news. And she started thinking well, my mom must be dead, not just hurt. I'm not going in that room by myself. And she told that to the front desk lady and she said no, no, you have to. And so Brenda asked is everyone okay? I'm not going in that room until I know my mom's okay. And so she told her no, your mom's okay, everyone's
Speaker 1:okay. So Brenda then come down and went in and there was Sergeant Alan Ugg. He stand up, he introduced himself and he told her that he had a few questions and he said how long have you been married to your husband? And she said 12 years. What is this all about? He said I can't tell you. She said well, you can't tell me what this is about. And he said no, because we need to get your home so you can make arrangements to take care of your kids, won't they be coming home on the bus? And before she left, she called her kids' school and left a message for a friend who worked in the school office to take her kids home with her after school that she will pick them up
Speaker 1:there. Brenda insisted on driving her own car. The police were reluctant to let her, but they have no choice. A little while later, brenda pulled up to a house that had seemed so normal just a few hours ago. The driveway was now filled with five unmarked police SUVs. Yellow police tape, cordon everything off. So she asked is Jeff here? They say no, where is he? I can't tell you. She asked if she could go in the house, and they say no, she had to go to the bathroom. Nope, she insisted. Finally, they had no choice. They didn't have warrants yet, so no one had been charged. It was her house. As she walked in, the phone rang and it was someone else from
Speaker 1:school. It turned out the friend she had left a message with had gone home early and wouldn't be able to take the kids. Brenda called her mom and asked her to pick them up, and she told them don't take them home, do not come here. Take the kids to your house, she said why, what's up? She said don't take them home, do not come here. Take the kids to your house, she said. Why, what's up? She said I don't know. But believe me, take the kids to your house, do not bring them
Speaker 1:here. Brenda came back outside and this time determined, and she started screaming where's Jeff, where's Jeff? And finally someone said he has been arrested. And she was like whoa what for? They said. I can tell you right now. Brenda was, you know, imagining that it probably was a speeding ticket gone awry. Jeff pulled over, going 10 over with a warrant for his arrest for unpaid parking tickets or something like that, and over with a warrant for his arrest for unpaid parking tickets, or something like that. Having sat there for hours with nothing to do but watch the scene, brandemille had noticed what looked to be a car covered by a tarp, hidden behind a berm of snow piled up from the driveway. At some point he went over to Brenda and asked her what was under the tarp and she said oh, that's Jeff's car. That car never moves. He's had it since before we were married. She didn't tell him, but it was the first car Jeff have ever financed on his own and he had a fantasy of someday putting its engine into a 1968 Chevy. So he asked, can you show it to me? And she said sure, they walked through the snow. At the side of the garage, brenda lifted an edge of the tarp and it was a gold Monte
Speaker 1:Carlo. On the drive back to the police station, larson and Kilbourne engaged Gordon into small talk, wanting to keep him calm. He would respond quietly and politely, but with one exception he never initiated any talk of his own. He told them he had been in charge of the crew that had installed the sprinkler system at the state police post they were now heading to and one thing struck Larson. Larson said he never asked one question, not what does this case you're investigating involve nothing? It was a strange trip. Because then he says I don't know whose mind was going faster, his or mine. I know we got the right guy and he doesn't know. We
Speaker 1:know. So they let Gordon into the station, the brass and local cops having been banished to offices and out of the hallway so things wouldn't seem too out of the ordinary. They took Gordon to a room usually used by the polygraph unit, hidden audio and video had been set up so Gordon wouldn't be aware he was being filmed and taped. Then they left him alone for a few minutes. The video date, the videotape the date in the upper left corner says 2-08-02. Time in the upper left corner says 1-40 pm. So Gordon sits in a chair just to the right of center screen wearing blue jeans. Cuffs roll up about four inches. Gray t-shirt, blue jeans, cuffs roll up about four inches, great T-shirt. Screen left is a small table and he rubs his right hand with his left. He rugs back and forth. He looks around the room, up at the ceiling, tilts forward, tries to read the top page of a packet of papers Larson has left on the table. At 1.44 pm there's a noise of a door opening screen
Speaker 1:left. Kilbourne reintroduces his partner. He says I'm Mike Larson and he reaches across the table to shake Gordon's hand and Kilbourne leans over and shakes his hand too. So Gordon leans back, right leg crossed over left, arms folded across his chest. Larson and Kilbourne are just off screen to the left. Larson's left hand can be seen taking notes. So Larson starts asking notes. So Larson's start asking, or I would say explaining to Jeff. He says Jeff, let us explain to
Speaker 1:you. We're part of a task force that's assisting the Flint Police Department. We're working on a couple of different cases and your name came up in one of our cases, specifically the assault on a woman by the name of Margaret Ebby. You're probably wondering geez, why am I here? And the bottom line is, at one point you work at the Mott Estate. I don't know what year you work there, but your company, buckler Sprinkler, and Gordon said I don't think I ever worked there. And so he said okay, we will get to that, but you can obviously see why we would have to talk to you, just like we have to talk to probably 100 other people so far. This is a real shot in the dark for us, because this is a case that's gone unsolved for a long time. There is a great big pool of people we have to contact and we're just slowly working our way through
Speaker 1:it. So Larsen tells him that he and Kilburn are square shooters, that while they are not required to at this point, for their sake and for his, they want him to read his Miranda rights and sign an acknowledgement that he has read them. Gordon takes the form, glances at it, picks up the pen. Gordon takes the form, glances at it, picks up the pen, asks for the date and signs and dates it. So Larson says maybe you are speed reader, jeff, did you in fact had a chance to look it over? And he said mm-hmm. And Gordon confirms the spelling of his name, his date of birth, his height, his weight, his home address, the phone number, his employment history at Buckner. They go over his military history, what he did in the Navy, and all the while Gordon rocks slightly, arms crossed, speaking very face, betraying no emotion. And so Larson asked where were you lucky enough to get stationed at? And he said Orlando for bootcamp, and then Chicago and then back to Orlando. What about his parents? Lawrence and Shirley are alive. They're still married. Deborah is the oldest sibling, steve is the next oldest, then Ben, who's dead, then Brian, then Jeff, then Greg. All the boys work in the family
Speaker 1:business. What Gordon does is that he doesn't give details about Dan's death, just says it's a matter like oh yeah, he died like. In a very matter of fact, it was anything but Dan, who had a history of depression and heavy alcohol use, committed suicide in the driveway of a suburban Flint home at the age of 37 in 1997. He had been hoping for a reconciliation with his ex-wife, but had just found out that she had a new boyfriend. He started an air compressor in the back of his red Chevy work van, the compressor normally being used to blow water out of sprinkler lines. He then went and sat down in the front seat with the windows roll up and waited to die of carbon monoxide poisoning. The windows roll up and waited to die of carbon monoxide poisoning. His ex-wife found his body two days
Speaker 1:later. So they start asking him what about a first marriage? And he said yeah, well, we got married, but it wasn't the right thing. We got married right after I went into the Navy. And so they asked him was she a high school sweetheart? He said I guess you could call her an old sweetheart. She got pregnant just before I graduated from high school. She's remarried. I'm not sure of her last
Speaker 1:name. And he said what happened to their child, a boy? He said I'm not sure. He said what's his name. He said Jeffrey, but it's spelled different. I know he graduated from high school. He said when did you last have contact with him? He said 1986. Don told him he had a different father, her boyfriend at the time. So even though she played those mind games with you saying he had a different dad, did she stick you with child support? And he said, oh, yeah, he said through high school. He said yep, jeff is vague about divorce details. He says that she came back without him to Flint. They tried to reconcile in 1986, but it didn't work
Speaker 1:out. So then Larson asked do you recall doing any work at the Mudd estate? And so now he says I might have been there once. My brother did some install work there, greg. He says so you were at the Mott Estate once. He said I was there when he put an addition down. I forget what they call the building, but he put an addition
Speaker 1:down. To refresh his memory, larson surprising Jeff, pulls out a sheaf of blueprints for the sprinkler system at this date, dated 1984, drafted by Jeff's dad. And he said where did he work? He said it was a little building down in a lower area, a chicken coop or something with some flowers around it. So they asked him to the best of your knowledge, that is the only time you were ever at the modest state. He said I was there one other time for two minutes. This fall Me and my brother, steve Brian, had left some tools there, he said. And the other time you were there, do you recall when that was? He said I don't know, maybe four or five years ago. And Larson says it's easy to understand not being sure unless you're carrying around a diary with you. And then Larson continued and said Jeff, again, one of the reasons we call you here is you're one of the employees of Butler, and Butler was a contractor at the modern state During the time frame. This woman was
Speaker 1:assaulted. As I told you earlier, we have contacted quite a number of people. As I told you earlier, we have contacted quite a number of people. Thanks to modern technology, we don't have to spend a lot of time with people. We can do DNA analysis that enables us to totally eliminate somebody in a very short period of time. We don't have to take up much of their time and it saves us a lot of time. We're just slowly working our way through. We have already worked through all the former employees of the modest state and now we're working our way through the contractors. God knows there are a lot of them. So we got a lot of time cut out for
Speaker 1:us. Obviously, at some point we would like you to provide a DNA book or swab so we can eliminate you. Is that something you will be interested in providing us? Jeff, who continues to have his arms crossed, said I don't have no problem with it, but I don't know if I should or not. And so Larson said you have to. I got to tell you we have contacted over 100 people who are basically in the same position as you, and we have had some people who said no, this is America. You have a right to say no, we're not going to lay you down on the floor and take it. If you choose not to, that's your decision and we will respect it. Up till now, four or five people out of more than 100 have refused to, and so they ask him so you don't want to take it? And he said not right now. He said okay, want to think about it. He said I want to think about it, want to think about it. He said I want to think about
Speaker 1:it. So now this is detective Kilhorn, his question having an edge to it, particularly since he's been so quiet so far because Larson has been playing the good cop. He said do you ever had a reason to go into one of Mudd estate. And Jeff said I do know there's a sprinkler controller in the main building, but I don't know where. And so Larson said I mean Kilburn said I just want to clarify. There's no reason for you to go in the houses, right? He said no, so much for having an excuse ready to explain the bloody print in Abby's bathroom when the time comes to bring it up, right? So now he said, jeff, I have mentioned the sexual assault of Margaret Evie. Have you ever heard about this case? This is Larson now asking. He said I heard
Speaker 1:something. So Larson pulls out a black piece of paper, pushes it across the table to Gordon and asks him to diagram the modest state the best he can from his two trips there. Gordon puts in the main house a green house, mentions a garage, puts in an outbuilding at the bottom of a hill at the back of the estate, no gay house. And Larson said is this the way the modern state looks, to the best of your recollection? And Jeffrey nods his head and said yeah, my brother would know more. Greg does 90% of the work there and Brian does the
Speaker 1:rest. So Larson said okay, jeff, you mentioned vaguely remembering this case when I mentioned the EBI assault. What immediately came to mind to you? He said I didn't recall remembering the name, but I remember reading in the paper. Something happened there. Any specific recollections of what you read? He said no. When was the last time you read about it? He said not too long ago. There was someone from Detroit or something. He said do you remember what you read? He said not too long ago there was someone from Detroit or something, he said. Do you remember what you read? He said no, something about they figure out it was the same person who did it, or
Speaker 1:something. So now Kilborn asked what do you think should happen to the person responsible? And Gordon says well, he should probably go to jail. And Gordon says well, he should probably go to jail. And Larson says well, having been there on the state, jeff, when you read about this, what kind of person do you think could be responsible for something like this? And he shrugged and said I'm not sure it's a good question. I don't really know the details so I can't say what kind of person I'm imagining not a good person. And then Detective Larson says well, maybe a good person who had some problems. I mean, there is any number of reasons in this line of work, we try to avoid strictly judging anybody. We may have a situation where people have problems and sometimes mistakes happen, and they truly are mistakes. And Jeffrey said so. Larson says well, is there any reason somebody would mention your name as a suspect in this case? And Gordon shook his head side to side and said
Speaker 1:no. Larson pushed Gordon's diagram of the mod estate back in front of him. He says Jeff, I want you to go back to this diagram that you made of your recollections of the mod estate. This is a circular driveway and actually there's a small house the mod family calls the gatehouse. Do you have any recollection of that? And Gordon said not really, I've been driven by the front of it, but the cultural center. I think I might have seen a gate here or something. He said I'm not talking about a mansion, it's much smaller. Do you remember it? He said I never pay much attention, so you have a recollection of a house down here. He said I'm not saying there isn't, I might have seen it. Any chance, you might have gone into that house at one time. And Gordon shakes his head and says no, I don't know whose house that is. And so Larson said well, let me ask you this You're on the job, you work outside. Is there ever a time when nature calls and you have to knock on a door and say, hey, can I use the bathroom? And Gordon says usually we use the trucks or go behind a tree or something. So do you recall any instances, in the two times you were at the modest state, that you may have gone into the main house or this smaller house to use the facilities? He said yeah. He said it was so long ago. I don't remember everything I did when I was
Speaker 1:there. So Kilbourne asked did you ever hear anything personally about Margaret Ebby, what kind of a woman she was? He said no, I think she was a teacher or something. So they asked him if he ever took any classes at UM Flint, and he said yes. The summer after high school, college prep stopped to see if he was up to college. So they asked him did he ever had her as a teacher? And he said not sure. Ever take music classes? He said no. So they asked him why did he quit school? And so he said when I found out my girlfriend was pregnant, we would be broken up for some time. I was just looking for a way to get away, and that's when I joined the
Speaker 1:Navy. So Larson asked you said Greg did 90% of the work at the modest state. Did Greg ever mention Margaret Eby to you? Mentioned Margaret Ebby to you? The reason I say this, jeff, is apparently Mrs Ebby has some peculiar activities. She apparently used to go back of this gatehouse and sunbathe nude, and the other thing is she didn't have any curtains and most of the windows and she would often walk around the house nude. This information was obtained in conversations we had with employees on the grounds. Did your brother ever mention any of that to you? He said
Speaker 1:no. So Larson continues and says Jeff, can you give us a couple of minutes? Can you give us a couple of minutes? We got a document we're waiting on and I want you to see if it's here. Can I get you a glass of water, a cup of coffee while we're waiting? And he said maybe a glass of water. So Larson gets in the water and they get up and
Speaker 1:leave. They go to the video monitor and look at him. His face seems to be relaxed, but his body, the guy, looks as if he's going to come out of his skin. He leans forward, he leans back. He looks skyward, looks around the room. Hands are clasped on, clasps, clasps on, clasps Resumes rocking. Right hand rubs vigorously on right knee. He continues rocking back and forth. Left hand rubs the left thigh. Then he was just basically a little squirming. So this is around 2.15 pm. They open the door and you can see it on the video screen. Left Cops are back and for nearly all the next hour Gordon has his arms crossed one leg, then the other and crossed over the opposite knee. He continues to walk back and forth and so Larson says we'll try not to keep you here too much longer. But we still have some questions for
Speaker 1:you. Jeff, I would like you to clarify for us your military record. For some reason you kind of glaze over everything that happened in your military career. I got to tell you, we got some idea of what happened to you and all he said was mm-hmm. So they said I can understand and appreciate that that could be a sensitive subject to you and it sounds like for the trouble you got in you obviously paid your dues. So Larson tells them it wasn't the 4th of 1981 that he joined the Navy, but
Speaker 1:later. And he said he asked him when he said well, it was February or March. It was a crazy time. Like I said, I was trying to get away from a kid, just that she was pregnant and trying to make me think it was mine. And he said so, was she a promiscuous person? I said no, not really. But we had been broken up for three or four months when she came to me and said that she was pregnant. So anyone would question that Did you ever have a test done? He said no, so that's why you went into the military to escape that. He said basically I told her I didn't think it was mine. I didn't think that was right because for her to come to me three or four months later and say it was
Speaker 1:mine. So he says that he joined the Navy under the buddy program with Joe Contreras, a friend from high school. They went to boot camp in Florida together. Then they went their separate ways. Gordon went to Chicago for advanced training as an electrician, then to Orlando for the nuclear power school, and Jeff found out in boot camp that he could run but he couldn't hide and he said she came down, found me in boot camp. Finally I agreed to marry her. It was the right thing to do
Speaker 1:so? Larson says the nuclear school. How long did that training last? And he said it was supposed to last into some trouble and left the Navy. And he said, as I mentioned to you before, jeff, good people get in trouble in our work. There is. There isn't anything that surprises us. We're not judgmental. Different people have different wants and desires. What drove you to get into some trouble in Orlando? And he said I stole some things I shouldn't have. He said what in particular? He said personal stuff belonging to. He said other people. He said men, women, children. He said women. What in particular? Was it jewelry, something valuable Clothing? He said clothing, anything else? He said
Speaker 1:no. Larson said well, the original charge we saw said burglary. In my mind, burglary is forcibly entering someone's home and taking something. Is that what you did? He said I climbed in through a window and stole a couple of things. He said did you ever do anything like that in Michigan prior to getting caught in Orlando? He said no, that was the first time I thought about breaking into someone's house, he said, but you thought about women's clothing. When did that first surface for you? He said it seems like most of my life. He said okay, as I said we're not judgmental. To me it doesn't matter if you're heterosexual, if you're gay, if you like cats or dogs or women's clothing. Basically it doesn't matter. We all have our own personal
Speaker 1:desires. Was it in high school when you had your first attraction to women's clothing? He said more like junior high. He said do you have trouble getting girlfriends? He said not really. He said were you sexually active? He said not a lot. So he said do you experience sexual intercourse in high school? He said not really until I was with Dawn. He said was she the first time? And he paused for a moment and then he said as far as I can remember, he said did you start with your mother's clothing? He said right Later, in another interview, later in the future, he would have said that he started cross-dressing when he was five years
Speaker 1:old. So they continue and says did that progress to the point perhaps where you went over to a neighbor's house, perhaps entering through an unlocked door or window, taking clothes hanging from a line? And he said not really. I think I might have got a couple of things from my friend's parents, you know, not breaking in because I was already there. Is there any particular item of clothing you're particularly fond of? He said pantyhose, I guess. He said do you still have some fetish desires to this day? He said yeah, I have seen a psychiatrist for it after I got back to
Speaker 1:Michigan. He said after you served time in prison? He said mm-hmm. He said did you spend all 22 months of your time in the same facility in Northern Florida? And he said yes, what was that like for you? How were you treated? He said okay, I guess it was just a place to stay. You didn't get no help or anything. So Larson asked did you feel you could have used some help? He said yeah, I could have used some help. I knew that wanting those things was wrong. And then he said you never. Do you ever? Did you have the birds and the bees? Talk with your dad? He said no, definitely not with my dad. He said what about your mother? He said I must not have because I got a girl pregnant. He said was there a dominant parent in the house? He said well, my mom raised the kids, but my dad was the dominant one. If you say this, that's the way it was. And then Larson asked him just going over to your house it's obvious you're a clean and meticulous person. That probably is a caveat from the way your mother brought you up. He said probably Q-Bone has been quiet this second session while Larson was doing all the questions and continued asking the questions and said Greg, is there anything you want to ask about
Speaker 1:Orlando? And Kilburn suddenly starts talking and says quite frankly, you have been very cordial to us since you have been here. Apparently, you skipped over that stuff the first time you told us about it. Were you simply embarrassed or were you hoping we didn't know about it? And he said well, it's not something you're proud of. He said is there anything else? Be honest, is there anything else you did not tell us, especially about that time period that you think we should know? He said well, there were two or three things that got me in jail. So what were the others? He said one is I did try to pull a slip off one
Speaker 1:lady. So where did that occur? He said some apartments. It seemed a way to get something else. So was there anything else of that nature? So there was one where I way to get something else. So was there anything else of that nature? So there was one where I tried to get something. I tried to break in another place but didn't get in Any other incidents in Florida. He said well, there was one in the base that got me in trouble. It was the same thing. I tried to pull a slip off a girl. Were you successful? I said no, it'll happen right
Speaker 1:together. The one I broke into was when we were in the trailer park and it was the manager of the trailer park. He must have turned my name in. It was his daughter. His daughter was like 12 or something and Kilburn said you were married. That can't be a good thing for your marriage. Kieran said you were married. That can't be a good thing for your marriage. He said right, that's why she came back to Michigan. He said your sentence was supposed to be four and a half years. You got out early. Do you know why? He said if you go to classes and stuff, you get out
Speaker 1:early? Did you hurt any of the women or was it strictly just trying to take articles of clothing? The women or was it strictly just trying to take articles of clothing? He said just take articles of clothes. Did the women get accidentally injured? I'm trying to think how you would get a slip off. He said I knocked them down, but I don't think they really got hurt. One was in a group of people and I didn't really get anywhere, it was just an attempt. The other one, she fell down. I didn't really push her down, she must have stepped back and fell. Do you have an attorney? He said I had one. I don't think I had a good one. And he said do you think your sentence was out of line? He said it was out of line compared to some people who were there. He said did that make you bitter toward the criminal justice system? He said no, I just wish they would have had something there. They tried to have a program because there were more people like me there, but it just never was much. They couldn't get funding for
Speaker 1:it. When I came home I went to a psychiatrist on my own and Kilborn asked when you got out of prison, do you immediately return to Michigan or do you work in Florida? And he said they took me to the airport. So what about this girl in the trailer? He said I met her, seen her a few times, pretty good looking. I actually never planned on breaking in there, but I was mad at the manager so I thought I would get. Even Someone had stolen a canoe and I had no reason to steal a canoe, but he had come over and accused me of stealing it, so I was mad at him. Do you feel any anger at the system as a whole? He said I wish I would have gotten more counseling. Yeah, but I'm not mad at
Speaker 1:anyone. So Larson asked were you at what in your life right now? Do you feel as if you could use some counseling? He said I still get some urges and stuff. I'm not perfect. He said well, none of us are compared to the alcoholic. A guy with a fetish is like a pebble compared to a boulder. The drunk driving his car could potentially kill someone. And Gordon stops rocking when he said that and stares at
Speaker 1:Larson. And Larson continues and says do you have any particular issues with women? Do you have a hard time relating to women? He said not really. He said do you get mad real easy at women? He's like you get mad real easy at women? He's like no, and he decided to hit a woman. No, were you teased in school? He said well, we were poor, so wore poor people's clothes. I got teased about that and I had a bad complexion and stuff. Is there any fantasies that you have in regard to women and stealing the clothing that you still feel inside of you? And he said it's always probably going to be there. Yeah, so is there anything specific like bondage? Where would you tie someone up? He said, nah, sadistic, where someone's tortured or whipped anything of that nature. And he shakes his head side to side and Kibron says when you got back to Michigan, you still had those desires. Were there any similar incidents to those down in Florida? Were there any similar incidents to those down in Florida? He said, since I've been back no, not really. It's been a couple of years now but I did get in a little trouble. In Clio I got
Speaker 1:probation. I did try to look up a girl's skirt. I didn't try to take anything, I was just looking. The girl was wearing a short skirt and she she bent over and I just you know. He said what led up to it. He said I was there to shop. My wife's birthday or some holiday was coming up. I was looking to get something for my wife and I seen her there and I don't know why I did it. I've never done that before. She had a short black skirt on. I remember she was good looking, but I can't describe her. So Larson says so that's the only thing you can recall happening to you in Michigan. He said not since I seen the psychiatrist. He said I had to learn to control it
Speaker 1:myself. I still get the desires for women things. It's usually my wife's things. He said do you wear her clothes? He said I have a couple of times. He said is she aware of your fetish? He said yeah, she kind of knows. He said is it okay with her? He said okay, I don't know. Okay, but she would prefer I didn't have any thoughts like that at all. He said does that cause an issue with your wife? He said not really, because I don't do it much
Speaker 1:anymore. So Kilbourne asked you have a pretty good marriage other than that? He said yes. He said do you ever hit your wife? He said do I ever hit her? No, ever had any police contact of a domestic nature? He said no, sounds like that. You have a good marriage. And he says mm-hmm and he
Speaker 1:nods. So now Larson asks him Jeff, other than your arrest in Florida, what's the worst thing that ever happened to you that you regret? Larson? At this point he's thinking about Abby and Ludwig, hoping that may have Gordon ready to confess. But instead Gordon says I remember one time I was upset I didn't get a job in the shop down in Detroit Where's the Chrysler plant? Not Detroit, but down there somewhere. It was skill trades. He said so why did you choose Detroit? He said I didn't choose Detroit, I was on unemployment. And they did it. Everything was done here, all the skills tests. So then I passed that and went down, not to Detroit but to wherever their main facility is. So I went down and did some more testing. He said anything else you might regret? He said no, mostly it's been kind of blessed. He said well, we all have been kind of disappointed in ourselves because we didn't meet our
Speaker 1:expectations. Anything else in your life that sticks out for you? Do you ever spend any time down in Southeast Michigan? And he said not really. He said not really means once in a while. He said I flew out of the airport once. He said when was that? He said I don't remember what year my wife and I went through the company flew to Vegas one time and to Cancun, costa Rica, once. It was all with my wife. Oh, and I went to Florida once, me, my wife and my kids. So four times you have flown out of Metro Airport in Detroit? He said yes, ever spend the night in any of the hotels down there? He said we did once Remember where you stay. He said no, I remember the planes flew over the top of us, me and my wife and kids, about four years
Speaker 1:ago. So Larson asked ever been to the Romulus Hilton? And there was a pause and his left eyebrow races and that's about it. Gordon gives nothing away. And then he says Hilton. I don't think so. I'm sure we could never afford to stay at the Hilton. One of the trips we stayed someplace it was in the Hilton. It was the cheapest place we could find Ever been in the Hilton. It was the cheapest place we could find Ever been in the Hilton at any time. He said not that I know of, probably like a Holiday Inn, something like
Speaker 1:that. He said well, from reading the newspaper accounts of what happened to Margaret Abby and the woman in Detroit, what do you remember? He said I just remember that they were killed or something, and it was by the same person or something. I don't know if I actually read it. It was on TV. I might have read some of it, I don't read too
Speaker 1:much. And Larson asked did they describe how these women were killed? There was a long, long pause. His arms are crossed, his left leg over right knee. They're rocking pauses too. And then he says probably did, but I wasn't paying much attention. Did he mention a sexual
Speaker 1:assault? To both there was a long pause and he said it might have. Just that he did it, I didn't pay that much attention to it. He said are you an avid TV watcher? He said not a whole lot. He said what are your favorite channels? He said we don't get too many channels. He said you don't get cable. He said just have an antenna. Usually we like to comedies. That's all I have time for, if I have time to watch them. And Larson says when was the last time you were down in the area of Metropolitan Airport? He said the airport. This fall we drove by an airport, don't know which
Speaker 1:one. And Larson asks are there any other incidents that might have happened? And he shakes his head and say no. He said reported or unreported. He's like no, any other incidents. He said no, I'm trying to keep myself clean. And then Larson paused for a little bit and then he says
Speaker 1:okay. And Larson turns to Kilbourne and you can see him turn on screen, but you can see his hands rotating to the right holding the papers and you can almost picture his body half rising from the chair. And he said Greg, you got anything and if Greg doesn't, then that will be done. And Greg does and says did these problems ever escalate beyond theft? And Gordon shakes his head and say no, so just use to take him and try them on and stuff. And there's a long pause. So now Greg Kilburn asks how do you feel about being here? You feel good about it. Sounds like you're kind of cleansing your soul here. Mike and I are both pretty decent guys. You feel okay about this. And Gordon shrugs and says I don't like to talk about my problems, problems I could probably be having. He said there's a long pause and Gordon takes a big gulp of
Speaker 1:water. Kilburn asks anything else? We'll try to get you out of here in a timely basis if possible, but we need to go a little further here, get a little more information so we'll get through this situation here. Anything else you need, like water, or are you all set? He said I'm all set. How long do you think this will take. I know my wife wants to go out tonight and Kilburn said I'm not sure. She's obviously been contacted and if you're concerned about your kids, she was notified. That situation has been resolved. He said we have plans to go out I think it was tonight and he started rocking again with his arm crossed. He said we'll give you a few minutes to relax, we'll be back and go from there. So he and Larson get up, walk out of the room and this time they let Jeffrey stew for 12 minutes and he sighs, he leans back, he stares at the ceiling, he rubs his hands, he rubs and rubs his hand and rubs and it's 3.43
Speaker 1:pm. So now they return and Kilburn says you have been very patient, we appreciate that we haven't really talked about your cars. What kind of cars do you like to drive? Are you a car guy? He said not really no. He said what kind of cars do you own? He said an old convertible, a 1964 Dutch Dart, and a van, a brown conversion van. And I got one that's rotting away in Monte Carlo. He said that's rotting away in Monte Carlo. He said when did you get that vehicle? He said I got it about 87, 88. I drove it until a few years ago. I still drive it once in a while. He said what year was it? He said it's an 82. It's under a cover. He said are you all straight with your water? And he nods
Speaker 1:yes. And then Larson says Jeff, up to this point I think we got through some issues. You were not being totally honest with us, but I think we worked through that. We're going to be totally honest with you. We have given you a chance to share with us some events that have happened in your life. It's time for us to share some things with
Speaker 1:you. And when Larsen says this, he's saying it louder, more forcefully than he said anything so far. He pauses, there's a long pause. He reaches down to some papers in front of him and shuffles through them. Gordon is watching him shuffling, his arms continue to be crossed, slightly rocking, and he says if I can find it, I'll be happy to share it. In the meantime, do you have any questions for us? I don't want this to be a one-sided conversation. Feel free, there's nothing we have to hide. And Jeff said no, as I said earlier, I wonder how long this is going to take. We're supposed to go out tonight,
Speaker 1:said. Well, jeff Larson looks like he found the paper he was looking for, puts it out, hands it across the table to Gordon, said I want you to take a look at this. Found the paper he was looking for, puts it out, hands it across the table to Gordon. He said I want you to take a look at this. Gordon takes a hold of it, stares at it you can see it on screen, but it is on FBI letterhead and he says I'm not sure what this is. And Larson says flip it over. What does it say? That sentence near the top, gordon begins reading Two latent fingerprints of value appear in Q1 and
Speaker 1:Q2. Two negatives One latent fingerprint appearing in Q2. A negative source, not indicated, has been identified, apparently as me. What it had gone on to say, which he didn't read, was has been identified as a fingerprint of Jeffrey Wayne Gorton, fbi number 54834CA3. He said is that your name? And he said uh-huh. And Larson says Jeff, you told us things that have troubled you and it's very evident to us that you would like to get some help. You're the only one who can answer
Speaker 1:this. The problem with the underwear escalated and ultimately resulted in the assault on Margaret Abbey. Gordon shakes his head and says I don't think so. And Larson says I absolutely positively know you did. Do you know where the print came from? He's saying no, he said the upstairs bathroom of a house you said you had never been in. There was no question. You're the person who's responsible. The question is why, and what can we do for you? And he said there's no why because I didn't do it. Larson says you did. You can continue to say you didn't do it. I'll continue to say you did it because I absolutely positively know you did. I'm not here to say you're a bad person, because I don't think you are. I think you have some issues in your life and some problems and there were many times people could have helped you and didn't. Wouldn't you agree? And he said I could have used some help, yeah, but not with
Speaker 1:this. And Larson says the question is why did it happen, jeff? And Kilburn then says we need to go to the prosecutor with a reason. If we're going to be able to help you, we can help you. If you don't help us. And he said well, I just need to see an attorney now because I know I didn't do anything. Larson says if we're going to get you help, this is your opportunity. This and he was waving the FBI report says it's not the final report. Okay, the DNA analysis from you came back today and it's a perfect match. We're going to afford you the opportunity to explain
Speaker 1:this. Your family is out there in the lobby now and I got to go out and talk to your wife. I'm not going to give her all the details and then I gotta go talk to your parents and your brothers and your sister. I'm not here to judge you. This isn't the case like this. We have work on, but I have done enough of them to know there is a reason why things happen. I know I'm sitting here talking to a guy who has cried out for help. The prosecutor already has this evidence the fingerprint, the DNA analysis. There is no one else with that DNA on the face of the earth. I surely would like to walk out there to your family and explain it to them that you were remorseful and wanted to take responsibility and set an example to your wife and, more important, to your
Speaker 1:children. And Gordon says well, I didn't do anything. So well, you can deny it and deny it and deny it, but we know you did it. This isn't a matter of geez. He may have done it. This is absolutely beyond a shadow of doubt, 100% positive. You did it. Were you expecting this? It's been almost 16 years. Were you looking over your shoulder for us? He said I don't know what you're talking about. I want to talk to my lawyer. I said I don't know what you're talking about. I want to talk to my lawyer. I said
Speaker 1:okay. And Kilburn said well, at this point we have to tell you you're under arrest. Larson says you're under arrest for two counts of homicide. Just sit tight, I'll be right back. And Larson leaves, kilburn remains. And Larson leaves, kilbourne remains. Then, larson, this is like at 3.57 pm. So two minutes later Larson returns and says stand up, jeff, come here. Gordon stands and walks toward the camera, turns screen left and walks off screen. The sound of handcuffs sneaking shut can be heard In, also off camera. Larson says this interview is over. Anything you want me to say to your wife? Any messages? He said not now. The door opens, they leave, it snaps shut. The camera continues to focus on Gordon's empty chair and across town the press conference ends sorry, 70th birthday Later, larson would muse that all these years the Flint PD was looking for a monster and they should have been looking for the guy next door. Thank you for listening to the Murder Book. Have a great week.
